How do we find nonbinary, trans, and queer parent community? What does it mean to raise kids in a broader community of queer support? How did our own first experiences of trans and queer community affect us growing up? Where do we see our stories reflected around us and connect with others like us now and across history? In this final episode in our parenting series, we talk with new guest, Raw, about finding Black, queer parent community as part of Parentxhood, growing up queer in Michigan, and their graphic novel featuring a non-binary main character. We hear again from Dylan Flunker and Meghan Myron-Karels one more time to close out this season. We’ll also be talking about Prime Video’s A League of Their Own series… because we can’t help ourselves…

Visit us: beyondthebinarypodcast.com 

Follow us on Instagram: @beyondthebinary_podcast 

Learn more about Raw at http://www.rawislove.com/ or follow Raw on Instagram: @irawniq and @charliesbestworkyet 

Episode resources:

Parentxhood: A safe space for Black queer parents to create deep connections and build support systems for ourselves and our families: https://www.parentxhood.com/. 

Family Equality: Trans, Nonbinary, and Gender Nonconforming Parents Virtual Peer Support Space. https://www.familyequality.org/trans-nonbinary-and-gender-nonconforming-parents-virtual-peer-support-space/  

Den of Geek: “How A League of Their Own Highlights the Vibrancy of Queer Communities.”

How A League of Their Own Highlights the Vibrancy of Queer Communities

Podcasts:

Gender Reveal Podcast: https://www.genderpodcast.com/ 

Making Queer History: https://www.makingqueerhistory.com/ 

Books:

Before We Were Trans (Kit Heyam)

For the kids:

Charlie’s Best Work Yet (Ris Irawniq Anderson)

Neither (Airlie Anderson)

Episode transcript:

SUMNER MCRAE:It’s a very normal feeling to want to be part of something that reflects back on your own identity. It’s human instinct to be in community. To find common ground and build connection based on shared experiences. Growing up, I knew there was something different about me, but despite being raised in a pretty progressive area, I only knew a couple of other queer or trans folks. Until I was in high school, I didn’t even know that queer or trans were things a person could be. The first person I came out to as a teenager was a friend who was also queer and already out. I felt tremendous relief in realizing these truths about myself. But also in having someone close by, who was going through something similar. Someone who could instantly understand the struggles and the confusion, followed by the revelation, relief, and also the joy. We talked about our crushes together, and she introduced me to queer music, and the classic queer movie, But I’m a Cheerleader. The community of our friendship was small, but to me, it made the world feel so much bigger. So much less closed off. It mattered that we had each other, because it meant there were more of us out there. We were not alone. SM: Welcome to beyond the binary, a podcast about non binary folks, navigating a binary world. Our first 5 episodes center on parenting in the gender binary. I’m Sumner McRae, your host on this journey. I’m queer, non binary, and a parent. This is episode 5: Community. SM:: After our first child was born, my partner joined a postpartum mama’s group for people with newborns. The group welcomed dads too, and it seems the assumption was, and is, for many of these kind of groups, that saying moms and dads are both welcome covers everyone. Except, of course, there are folks like me who definitely aren’t a mom and aren’t exactly a dad either. There are also dads who are gestational parents, or, of course, non binary parents who aren’t moms or dads who either give birth or like me or a primary caregiver to a newborn. It was hard to see how there was space for folks like us in a group like this. After my partner went back to work, though, I decided to take over her spot in the group. It was a chance to get out of the house and talk about the challenges and successes of life with a newborn. A cisgender friend and ally whose baby was born just a few months after ours joined the group with me, and it felt good having someone there that I knew and who knew I was my kids papa. I was open in the group about not being a mom and didn’t get any outwardly negative reactions. But aside from me, the group was exclusively cis and straight women, as far as I could tell by way of their introductions. And with the exception of one person, the group was also completely white. In the end, I didn’t feel like I was getting enough out of the group in terms of newborn care comradery. To outweigh the discomfort I felt at being in such a straight, cis mom centric space. After a few sessions, I stopped going. But it made me wonder about queer parent community. There’s the community we have with our friends and our chosen kin. But what about the more intentional communities that form around parenthood? The postpartum groups, the play groups, the online message boards, where do non binary and gender nonconforming parents fit into these spaces? How do we create our own spaces, where we can take part in this stuff and also breathe freely? Not having to explain ourselves or constantly educate others about our lives and identities. Here in D.C., there’s a decent queer community and being that it’s a bigger city. There are plenty of resources for queer trans and non binary folks. Trans and non binary support groups abound. But I recently went down a list of current support groups for trans and non binary folks in the area and found that none catered to folks who are parents, except for groups geared towards mainly cisgender parents of trans and non binary kids. There are plenty of those. Online, it’s also a bit hard to find community specific to trans and non binary parents. Google transparent community or non binary parent community and again, you’ll find mostly resources for parents of trans and non binary kids, not parents who are trans or non binary themselves. SM: Social media has proven to be a space where trans and non binary parents can find each other and connect. Kimmins Southard, who we spoke to in episode two, found solace in other pregnant non binary folks posts on Instagram, where there is a small but growing trans and non binary parent community. Many others have found or cultivated community on social media as well. In 2019, a parent named Mia Cooley started a group called Parentxhood on Facebook as a space for Black queer parents to find virtual support and community with each other. RAW: They’re an amazing group. I actually was introduced through my friend Jessica Schrody. I believe she actually does a lot of their social media. And she told me like, hey, there’s just a queer black parent group, but I just really feel like you should be a part of. SM: You’re hearing the voice of Raw, a Parentxhood member. Raw is a queer, non binary parent, and uses she and they pronouns. She’s also a multi talented creative. Raw is an actor, artist, musician, and writer, and a parent to a middle schooler. RAW: My son’s 14. So coming out, identifying with gender fluid. I guess I never really thought about if there was anybody that there was other folks like me. I just kind of like, half as kid, I got to take care of this kid, and I’m evolving more and more into myself and this feels good. SM: Raw goes by mom with their kid. To Raw being a mom and also being a non binary person are not in conflict with each other. Each of us contains multitudes, and each of us is carving our own path, especially non binary folks. RAW: The more transparent authentic I was with myself and growing into myself and just putting that out there, I think that attracted other folks that maybe were questioning or kind of traveling down that same path. SM: For Raw, embracing authenticity is central to being in community with others. RAW: I think just if we just move in, we genuinely move in our authenticity. You kind of create that community much like Mia did with the hood. You can be yourself and the people are going to come. SM: Parentxhood’s online presence has grown significantly and expanded beyond Facebook. And ultimately beyond the confines of the web to in person gatherings as well. The group now hosts annual in person black parents summits. RAW: Yeah, they manifested something from online and the fruition of that into an amazing event. I would go back every year. The information, the education, the love… It was really, it was really cool. SM: Raw attended Parentxhood’s Black Parent Pride Summit for the first time last year. RAW: I wound up speaking on a panel about tran, non binary parenting and different things that I have experienced or you know, just advice. I also spoke with Kayden. He’s known as the seahorse, I think. I think his name’s Papa Seahorse because he also birthed his daughter. I’d never been around trans folks that had children. In my life, honestly, to like sit down and talk to other trans folks that have had children, birthed children, and to navigate our bodies. SM: Raw noted that a lot of their friends don’t have kids. So to be able to be surrounded by so many other parents, especially queer Black parents, was a really meaningful, validating and joyful experience. RAW: To see all these black and brown folks and to be received with so much love and to not have to explain, just everything was understood. And to see that many people talking about children – it sounds silly, but I live in LA, like none of my friends have kids. People can barely afford to live out here on their own, let alone bring a family together. I literally, I came back with so much joy. SM: Raw was especially moved and inspired by the presence of black queer joy at the summit. RAW: I felt like I had a boy that I didn’t know I had… until I went to this summit with all these black parents and I think I think it was like the drive to have children and the love and affinity they had for their children and their partners. I won’t forget how much that meant to me. SM: There’s a lot of emotional labor and stress that comes with trying to navigate the world every day as a trans and nonbinary person. I realized since becoming a parent that it’s critical not just to have other queer and trans parents in my corner, but also to have the support of a broader community that sees and values nonbinary trans and queer folks. This is why it’s so important to have queer and trans people visibly part of everyday life. And why the many legislative attacks against us are such a threat. We need queer teachers and pediatricians. We need drag queens at library story time. We need trans pharmacists, social workers, and babysitters. Not too long ago, I was having a day. A week, really. One of those weeks where a nonstop parade of microaggressions insurance roadblocks and gender binary challenges presented themselves to me all at once. I was so drained and so ready to be done with cis and straight people for the next decade. But I’m also a parent. Also responsible for the mental and physical well-being of two small people. And at the same moment, on the day I reached my breaking point, as if we were in some kind of cosmic sink. My younger child also had a day of a very similar nature. My youngest, who loves to wear dresses and skirts, and frequently wears them to school. Broke down in tears that morning that he didn’t want to wear a dress to school that day. Because a classmate had told him he couldn’t. That dresses were for girls and that he wasn’t a girl. I was glad my partner was there because after the week I’d had, I was beginning to see red. It’s one thing to steer through these obstacles as an adult, but when this shit starts coming for my kid, I’m ready to burn the world down. But instead, we all took a deep breath. After much consoling and reassuring that anyone can wear dresses, and also that anyone can be a girl, or any kind of person they want. And that those things aren’t for others to tell us. Our youngest put on his dress and walk to school. At the time, he had a teacher who was not only well versed in gender expansive vocabulary, but also had disclosed to us that she herself was queer and had a non binary partner. She smiled at our kid when he arrived and took over. Our kid told her what the classmate had said, and she knelt down and very reassuringly told him. Well, I’m going to have a chat with that friend because I think they’re confused. Dresses are for everyone. It was such a relief to have someone else help take on the burden of that day. Especially someone who could really grasp and identify with all the meaning and emotion of what was happening. Many of the other nonbinary and trans parents I talked to this season felt similarly about the importance of not being the only queer or trans person in your own corner. DYLAN FLUNKER: I think that… finding places where we are not the only adults helping navigate living into the world that we want to live in. SM: This is Dylan Flunker again, from our family episode. DF: Sometimes when you are at that like, I’m done dealing with cis people exhaustion, and then someone else in your circle will be able to step in and also be like modeling the gender expansive future that we’re trying to, like, lean into. SM: Having a queer and gender diverse community around me makes me feel safe, seen, and whole. It’s amazing how being in a space with even just one more queer or trans or non binary person. Makes me feel more at ease. Like I’m supposed to be here too. Like I belong. SM: A huge part of feeling connected and seen in the communities of our families, Friends, neighborhoods, states, and even countries. Is seeing ourselves and our stories reflected in the images and narratives around us. Knowing that you’re not the only one, both right now in this current moment, and back through history, is a huge part of finding community. You can’t easily find what you can’t imagine, or don’t know exists. RAW: …8 years old, I was like, mom, what’s a lesbian? And she was like, what? What are you talking about? I was like, I just want to know what a lesbian is – I’ll never forget that. And she’s like, well, it’s when two women are together, and then, of course, that’s followed by why it’s a sin and like terrible and perverted and whatever… SM: Raw grew up in a small town in the Midwest and struggled with feeling isolated in terms of race and also gender identity and sexuality. RAW: Going to an all white school, it was not… I ended up taking myself out of that school because I wanted to be around Black people. I didn’t want to be around anymore white people. Went there. I had my first girlfriend and broke my heart, outed me and then I was like, all right, I need to be with the queers. I don’t know. This is no space for me here. Moved to Detroit started finding all – start walking in balls, start being around all the gays, but Detroit is really what gave me community as far as being gay, being accepted, being masc, being myself, even now, like having a child, some of my closest relationships are folks that I met when I was 16 years old back in Detroit. SM: For so many of us, leaving home was when we found not just queer and trans community for the first time, but representation of ourselves in literature and other media for the first time too. Though we often had to really work to seek those things out. DF: In college was really when I encountered more language and more space to think about my gender. And I really wish that I would have found the concept of nonbinary sooner. But like, you know, even just like the concept of transgender people being out there in the world, and just the really feeling seen for the first time by like, in seeing myself in other things people were writing and talking about. RAW: Thinking about how much I loved reading as a kid and just like going to the library was something I actually look forward to. SM: For Raw the experience of having felt so isolated as a young person is a big part of the impetus for the graphic novel they wrote, called Charlie’s Best Work Yet, about a gender fluid middle schooler, navigating adolescence through art and identity. RAW: The book is really encompassing curiosity and figuring things out… and accepting who you are, but also being okay with not knowing. SM: Raw wanted kids like her, especially Black kids exploring what gender identity means. To be able to see themselves in the children’s literature available to them. RAW: And that is kind of sort of like purgatory of, hey, we’re going to figure it out, maybe, but we don’t have to know just yet. DF: You also never know who’s going to see themselves in a book and not realize that that was their story too. And that if you don’t, like if you don’t see yourself reflected in the stories that are around you, how are you ever going to sort it out? SM: Even now as adults, with everything that we have access to, it’s still difficult to find representations of ourselves as non binary and transgender parents. There’s a lot to say for the real life communities around us, whether in person or online. But I also think that part of this feeling connected and feeling a sense of belonging is about seeing yourself represented in public life and in literature and media, and knowing that you’re a part of a broader us. SM: A lot of conservative rhetoric insinuates that queer and trans people are a new phenomenon. That back in the good old days, everyone was happily straight and cis. We know that’s ridiculous. There have always been queer and trans folks. But queer and trans and gender nonconforming folks throughout a lot of our history weren’t given the opportunity to tell their stories. And other times, of course, those stories were purposefully and systematically erased. Since embarking on this podcast project, I’ve been madly scouring the Internet and the public library for stories about trans and nonbinary people in history who were parents. They have to have existed, but it’s really hard to find these stories. Googling things like history of transgender parents will find you this list called a very brief history of LGBTQ parenting that keeps popping up on several different sites, including family equality dot org. And it’s not kidding. It is very brief. I did find a few fleeting examples of nonbinary parents in history in places like Kit Heyam’s new book Before We Were Trans. But these stories are just wisps of what parenting beyond the binary might have looked like at different points in time and different places in the past. Most of these stories aren’t really about being parents. The main thrust of these stories is gender nonconformity. Every once in a while, we get a mention of folks who happen to be parents while also bending the rules of gender in their respective circumstances. But rarely is the experience of parenthood and its relationship to gender identity at the forefront. SM: Thinking about what non binary and transparent and family experiences would have been like in the context of U.S. culture and history. My partner pointed out, of course, that maybe people were doing this, but they probably would have had to be very stealth about it. So anyone doing it, people maybe wouldn’t have ever known until they died. And maybe not even then, if they kept no journal or other records. MEGHAN MYRON-KARELS: I refuse to believe that this didn’t exist. SM: Here’s Meghan Myron Karels again. MMK: I think it’s like virtually impossible to assume that there haven’t been queer parents. I think that there’s a lot that we won’t ever know about because it wasn’t recorded by the people in power. It’s not new. It’s just more visible. SM: Trans non binary and queer folks are erased from so many stories, or at best, often pushed to the margins, but we know our people were there. SM: I think it’s easy for people who haven’t sort of been through that kind of a… experience, to not realize how critical that is to see yourself to see – MMK: Yeah.SM: And not just you know not that again, not that everyone should become parents and have families and do that, but just that you can see all the possibilities. MMK: Yeah. Representation matters! SM: I’ve been thinking – I’m starting to laugh because I was thinking about A League of Their Own. MMK: So good. SM: Lately, I’m always thinking about A League of Their Own SM: Meghan and I are big fans of the new League of Their Own show that came out last summer. The whole point of the show is to tell stories that often don’t get told. In this case, this includes Black, queer, and trans stories that didn’t get told in the original A League of Their Own movie. The show itself has been praised for its excellent portrayal of racial dynamics, queer community, and chosen can relationships. In the 1940s, United States, what’s most special about the series is its centering of queer and trans joy alongside the struggles. I saw myself represented in the characters of Jess, Lupe, Bertie, and even Carson. But I didn’t make the connection to queer parenting and queer family fully until I talked to Megan about it. SM: Well, I don’t know. I was going to say that has nothing to do with parenthood, but actually – MMK: No, it has everything to do with parenthood! SM: So there’s a lot of different portrayals of motherhood and parenthood, now that I think about it, in that show. MMK: Oh, it’s so -SM: It’s like when Lupe says that she had her – that daughter MMK: Yeah. SM: When she was a teenager. MMK: Well, when you think of the Uncle… Bertie’s relationship is very much that of a parent. They’re parenting in a lot of ways. There’s so much parenting in that show. It’s rich. SM: I thought we were getting off on a tangent. But as Meghan points out, of course, there are major themes of parenting in the show. There’s Max’s struggle to be seen by her mother. There’s Max’s mother’s struggle to understand and sometimes misguided efforts to protect her child. There’s Lupe’s loss of her own daughter, who was taken from her by Lupe’s own parents. Lupe knows that she wouldn’t be able to be who she is now – queer and gender nonconforming and playing baseball, if her child had remained with her, but she grieves that loss still. In Lupe’s world, she can’t be both herself and a parent. There’s Greta’s yearning to have children with no accessible or acceptable route to do so. And there’s Bertie and Gracie, who parent Max as she comes into herself as a queer, gender nonconforming young adult, and also a rich, queer chosen family of folks who thrive under their mentorship. These are the stories I was hungry for when I scoured the library in the vastness of the Internet for queer family histories. This is the community I recognize from my own life, and one of the very few times I’ve ever seen it reflected back at me on a screen. Unfortunately, but perhaps unsurprisingly, that show, like many others before it, will probably meet an early end. Rumor has it that although it’s been renewed for a second season, the second season, which will likely include only four episodes, will be its last. It’s hard not to notice the queer community that has sprung up online around the show. Both to share in the joy it’s created, but also to help keep it afloat in a climate that still makes it really difficult to make and keep shows centering queerness and transness and queer family. I’ve been thinking a lot about this as I’m reflecting on queer folks throughout history and seeing how things keep changing over time. Even over our lifetime, the way we’re able to live and be ourselves and have these things that folks who came before us couldn’t have in the same way. Or that even we ourselves couldn’t have imagined having just a couple of decades ago. MMK: When I think about, like, growing up and what life was like for me and like the struggles that I had as a teen and an early adult thinking about the future or future planning. I think a lot of that comes from being closeted, not being in a supportive environment, being ostracized for being one of very few brown people in my community period, let alone being a queer brown kid. And so, like, when I was younger and I would think about what life was going to be like for me as an adult, I never, ever, ever – having a partner, being in a committed relationship, like being in a relationship period, like having somebody to love was just never part of the equation. And I think it really stunted my ability to future plan because that just made me sad, right? And so when adults would ask me like, oh, what do you want to be when you grow up? I would just give them fantastical answers. I’m going to be a baseball player. Or like, I’m going to be a movie director. For a long time, I was – I’m going to be a movie director, because that was more interesting and exciting than talking about, well, actually, I think I’m gay. I was like, all right, these are the things I can not talk about because they make me wildly uncomfortable, and I don’t feel safe. Let alone just even the ability to think that far ahead of what life could be like. Like 12 year old me would look at almost 40 year old me right now and be like, what? Like, this is like, I think it would be pretty inspiring, honestly. But also like the fuck? SM: Like we’ve said before, it’s hard to imagine what you can’t see. MMK: With all of the progress that we’ve had in normalizing, or just more opportunities to learn and create different language around our experiences… I think if I had some of these words, these concepts, or these frameworks as a younger person, I think I would have probably come to terms a lot earlier around how I understand my own gender. And being more comfortable in my own body. SM: Some things are better now than they were in the past, and some things aren’t. And of course, there’s some privilege and some luck of the draw involved here too. Not everyone is in the same position. We’re seeing a lot of trans rights under attack right now, which is scary. But I keep thinking of all of us carrying this imaginary torch, and each generation of us trying to carry it as far as we can. Sometimes its light is dimmer than others, and sometimes it feels heavier to hold. We’re not there yet. But we’re always moving. MMK: I read Octavia Butler’s parable series. It’s daily that I think about the premise of that whole book of God being change and change being God and you can’t – change is inevitable. We have to figure out a way to embrace it. And so and see the beauty in it. It doesn’t take away the difficulty of it, but just because something is difficult doesn’t mean it can’t be worthy. SM: My generation is still young. We have further to walk. But new generations are starting to take up the fight too. MMK: Younger generations having more exposure, having a wider vocabulary, have a wider access to resources and representation. Like even if they’re not living – like somebody who’s living in Madison, Minnesota, now has access to the Internet and can find community outside of where they physically reside that is supportive and encouraging and allows people to be themselves. Despite the political side of things like trying to like regress, right? Like it’s just – there’s no way. Whenever I find myself feeling really down and low and concerned for the future, like, I keep thinking about because of access to information, it’s not sustainable to maintain that level of oppression. SM: When I look at my kids and the way they think about these things, the way they experience the world, and the way they make space for an entire constellation, or even universe of gender expression, I see that torch in their hands. And I can hear a chorus in my head. Keep going, keep going. Keep going. SM: This is the last episode in our parenthood series, but I’m so excited to keep the podcast rolling. We’re already talking about topics for Beyond the Binary Season 2, and hope to put together a whole new series for you all later this year. If you want to help make that happen, make sure you’re following Beyond the Binary on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen. And please rate and review. It really helps broaden our reach. You can also share your favorite episode with a friend or family member or just share the whole series. Finally, you can support the podcast on Patreon at Patreon.com/beyondthebinary. Financial support ensures that we have the tools we need to produce a great podcast. Many thanks to those who have become patreons of Beyond the Binary already. Stay tuned for some bonus mini episodes over the coming weeks while we make plans for season two. Deepest, deepest gratitude to everyone listening this season. We love you all so much. SM: You can find more of ra’s work at raw is love dot com. You can also find them on Instagram @Irawniq, spelled I R A W N I Q. Or find out more about their book on Instagram @Charliesbestworkyet. These links and other information about Beyond the Binary can be found in the show notes. Beyond the Binary is written produced and hosted by me, Sumner McRae. Co produced by Barbara Schwabauer. Theme music by Sumner McRae. Special thanks this episode to Raw, Dylan Flunker, and Meghan Myron-Karels. A heartfelt and final thanks to everyone who took part in the podcast this season. You all are amazing. SM: It’s called a very brief history of LGB two – L… sorry. Let me try…MMK: Hahahahaha! Alphabet soup.SM: I’ve been queer for 20 years, guys!MMK: Hahahaha!