What does the super-gendered landscape of parenthood look like for non-binary parents? Our culture is largely organized around the idea that parents are either Moms or Dads. But not everyone feels like a mom or a dad, so then what? How do we conceive of ourselves?

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Beyond the Binary website: www.beyondthebinarypodcast.com 

Follow on Instagram @beyondthebinary_podcast

Resources:

National Center for Transgender Equality: https://transequality.org/issues/resources/understanding-non-binary-people-how-to-be-respectful-and-supportive

NPR: A Guide to Gender Identity Terms: https://www.npr.org/2021/06/02/996319297/gender-identity-pronouns-expression-guide-lgbtq

Beyond Kings and Queens: Gender and Politics in the 2019 Black Census: https://blackcensus.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Beyond-Kings-and-Queens-Gender-and-Politics.pdf 

Rainbow Families Trans and Gender Diverse Parents Guide: https://www.transhealthsa.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Rainbow_Families_TGD_Parents-Guide.pdf 

Xtra Magazine: “I’m a non-binary parent. There still isn’t space for me.” (andrea bennett): https://xtramagazine.com/love-sex/im-a-non-binary-parent-there-still-isnt-space-for-me-154990

Other podcasts:

“NB” My non-binary life” https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p06y51dp/episodes/downloads

“Gender Reveal” https://www.genderpodcast.com/

Books:

Nonbinary: Memoirs of Gender and Identity (edited by Micah Rajunov and Scott Duane)

Like a Boy But Not a Boy: Navigating Life, Mental Health, and Parenthood Outside the Gender Binary (by andrea bennett)

For the kids:

Neither (by Airlie Anderson)

Episode Transcript:

SPEAKER 1: It’s been really liberating, becoming a parent, honestly, because, like we can all be complicated and be celebrated in our complexities.

SPEAKER 2: We have the right to have a family and to do this way.

SPEAKER 3: Like if you don’t see yourself reflected in the stories that are around you, how are you ever going to sort it out?

SPEAKER 4: Not many young kids probably get the kind of depth of warmth and acceptance and support that I think queer and trans parents are capable of giving to their children.

SUMNER MCRAE: Welcome to Beyond the Binary, a podcast about nonbinary folks navigating a binary world. Our first five episodes center on parenting in the gender binary. We’ll be talking to nonbinary, genderqueer, and transgender parents about the unique challenges we face, the unique joys we experience, and the ways we all come up against the gender binary at nearly every turn once we become parents.

I’m Sumner McRae, your host on this journey. This is Episode 1: Conception.

About ten or fifteen years ago I stumbled across a blog called Lesbian Dad. It was written by a butch lesbian whose partner had recently given birth. Like many other gender non-conforming parents, she grappled with what to do about the title “Mom.” “Mom” didn’t feel like it described her or her role in her family. She ultimately chose to be a “Baba” and started up Lesbian Dad to chronicle her journey. At the time, there weren’t many other folks like her publicly sharing their experiences. 

I had never identified as a lesbian but Lesbian Dad spoke to my soul and opened me up to a whole world of new ideas about what parenthood might look like for me. I absolutely knew I was going to be a parent someday but I too knew I wasn’t going to be a Mom. 

I had the thought recently that it would make sense to call this episode “Conception,” since the episode following it, our second episode, is going to be called “Birth.” 

But by “conception, ” I don’t mean the conception of a child, which we aren’t covering on this podcast, but as non-binary, trans, and queer folks, our conception of ourselves as parents. What does the super-gendered landscape of parenthood look like for non-binary parents? Our culture is largely organized around the idea that parents are either Moms or Dads. But not everyone feels like a mom or a dad, so then what? How do we conceive of ourselves?

 As a gender non-conforming parent, I felt  like I had to imagine myself into the world. When my partner got pregnant, we started having conversations about what I would call myself, or rather, what the baby would call me, once they arrived.

SUMNER MCRAE: [Are you ready?]

BARBARA SCHWABAUER: [Yep.]

SUMNER MCRAE: So, what did you think when I told you that I didn’t want our kids to call me mom or mama or some version of that?

BARBARA SCHWABAUER: I mean I guess, looking back now, because I’m not in that moment.

SUMNER MCRAE: This is Barbara, my partner.

BARBARA SCHWABAUER: Um, it didn’t seem like the right word for you and how I see you and so I think it was always a question for me of like what did you want to be called and what would you be comfortable with. I didn’t really ever see you as mom or mama.

SUMNER MCRAE: Yeah. It seems especially weird now.

BARBARA SCHWABAUER: Yes. [Laughs]

SUMNER MCRAE: Eight years later

BARBARA SCHWABAUER: Yes, it does.

SUMNER MCRAE: to think of having made a different decision I guess…

SUMNER MCRAE: At first I was really uncertain about what I wanted. Initially, I think baba and dad were among the top contenders, but neither of them really felt like me.

SUMNER MCRAE: I remember that you were a little surprised that I didn’t want to use Baba. Um, and at one point I think you also encouraged me – or not encouraged me, but just were like it’s OK if what you want to do is just go with dad, um, and I know I wasn’t really sure about that. And I think I wanted something like a little bit off the beaten path but like also that was like recognizable to people as a parent name – like I know some folks have chosen things like Zaza, or like other, um, but I wanted something that people would know.

BARBARA SCHWABAUER: I mean I remember on the Baba front thinking, there’s like a queer set of rules for how to do this, right…

SUMNER MCRAE: Yes.

BARBARA SCHWABAUER: And so Baba is this like very typical sort of term that’s used.

SUMNER MCRAE: There were other Babas.

BARBARA SCHWABAUER: Yes, other Babas in the discourse, so I think that’s probably where some of that came from, but, I don’t, I don’t specifically remember suggesting Dad, but think I wanted you to know it was OK to choose that if that was what you wanted. And i think you were sort of describing yourself or how you saw yourself, like, you saw yourself as sort of a dad and not a mom.

SUMNER MCRAE: Yeah.

BARBARA SCHWABAUER: And so wanting to be able to say it’s OK to take that terminology on if that’s what you want. I think was where I was coming from…

SUMNER MCRAE: In the end, we landed on Papa, which felt pretty natural, I think, to us, because we’d already been calling me that for years when we did voices for our cats. Because yeah, we’re those people.

SUMNER MCRAE: Did you ever worry what other people were gonna think?

BARBARA SCHWABAUER: I mean, I think, there was always, like especially in that first year, trying to make clear to the parents that you were papa. And so there was this time period of like how are –

SUMNER MCRAE: Like make clear to our parents?

BARBARA SCHWABAUER: Yeah, like, yeah our parents.

SUMNER MCRAE: Yeah.

BARBARA SCHWABAUER: And I think there was this time of um, how are they gonna receive it? Are they going to be able to do it? ANd I think during that time period I was pretty anxious because I wasn’t sure how they were gonna respond and I know there was some drama around the choice of Papa in particular that sort of contributed to that. So I just imagined that there were gonna be challenges – l think that part was always like yes it’s gonna be challenging to try to explain this to people but that – I wasn’t worried about that. I was more so worried about making sure that like, the kids got to lead on who you were in terms of who they see you as and not grandparents and also, other people out in the world and that for you, for you to also see yourself reflected in that. Like I think there was, I had some worry about that. But I wasn’t necessarily, like afraid of consequences or big blowups. I just was more worried about making sure we can get people to get it right.

MEGHAN MYRON-KARELS: This is really – the concept of using different words for how we, how we address people or call people or help other people understand the relationship, is not uncommon.

SUMNER MCRAE: This is my friend, Meghan. We’ll hear more from her in later episodes this season, but she had some interesting things to say about how flexible people are about using different terms to describe people and relationships in some situations, and how rigid we are in others.

MEGHAN MYRON-KARELS: Especially when you think of grandparents. And, and, and grandparents get to have all these super cool like Oma, Opa, or you know Nana, whatever – we can apply these concepts, but for some reason when we apply it in different setting or in a new way, it all of a sudden becomes complicated and like too hard or like confusing. But we’re capable. We can do this. We’ve demonstrated that it’s possible.

SUMNER MCRAE: And it’s true – lots of people have different things they call their grandparents and even some of less familiar ones are pretty easily recognized and used by most of us. There’s a lot room given for creativity there. But that same space isn’t often extended to parents and it can be really hard to get people to refer to you with a different parent nickname when they’ve already decided in their heads that you’re a mom, or a dad. 

BARBARA SCHWABAUER: One of the other things I remember kind of coming up with this was, early on to like, daycare providers, like that you were papa…

SUMNER MCRAE: I had kind of forgotten about this part – explaining to our child care providers that I was going to be called Papa, before our children were actually speaking or able to call me anything.

BARBARA SCHWABAUER: …and we had no idea what they were saying during the day, like oh, like “your mom will be here to pick you up” and did they mean me, did they mean you, like?

SUMNER MCRAE: Yeah.

BARBARA SCHWABAUER: Were they really sort of like, keeping that piece of it together. And a lot of like, uh, what do we do around Mother’s Day? Cause the daycares are really big into Mother’s Day and…

SUMNER MCRAE: Yeah, there were a lot of… yeah. I feel like it was like every other year, like some years I would get a Mother’s Day thing, but it would be, like addressed to Papa, and then dome years I would get a Father’s Day think, also addressed to Papa.

SUMNER MCRAE: Our first kid was born eight years ago. At the time, we decided that we would celebrate Barbara on Mother’s Day and me on Father’s Day, though neither holiday really comes with much pomp and circumstance in our house. We’re usually too tired and distracted to do much more than maybe let each other sleep in and make sure the kids make a card. Recently, we learned that there’s a Non-binary Parents’ Day in April. I’m kind of excited to ditch Father’s Day altogether and celebrate my role in our family on that day instead.

BARBARA SCHWABAUER: I think that – think that would also help for parents too to mark it differently, cause I think our parents, or at least my parents, are confused.

SUMNER MCRAE: My parents, I think also are not sure… what to…

BARBARA SCHWABAUER: Yeah, they’re like this holiday doesn’t exists for us. We’re not gonna…

SUMNER MCRAE: Well I get wished a happy Mother’s Day a lot, but it’s with this like trepidation, like I can tell they’re not sure if that’s what they’re supposed to be doing but they don’t want to leave me out…

BARBARA SCHWABAUER: I can’t wait to introduce non-binary parents’ day to my parents…

SUMNER MCRAE: It’s hard to imagine now the conversations we had about this  because it’s been pretty smooth sailing for coming up on a decade now. I’m with my kids everyday and I’m “Papa” or a lot of times, “Poppy,” and it always sounds like exactly the right thing coming out of my kids’ mouths.

CHILD’S VOICE: Papa look at this! Whoa! It’s almost wipe the walls…

SUMNER MCRAE: Being my kids’ “Papa” and embracing my nonbinary identity opened up the world. It was like all the rules and obstacles I had imagined around me were gone. On another podcast recently I heard someone describe their struggle with using the term nonbinary because they worried it says more about what we’re not instead of what we are. I like genderqueer a lot for this reason and identified that way for a long time, and still do. But as “nonbinary” has come more and more into common use, I’ve latched onto it as another way to describe me. I like nonbinary because it does draw attention to the idea of binary gender – because that’s the soup we’re swimming in right now – and the ways that that doesn’t serve everyone, even cis people, very well at all. 

I like feeling like part of my gender identity is disrupting the idea that I somehow exist between two opposite poles, male and female. I don’t think it works quite like that. There’s not just two choices and then “something else” in the middle. A while ago, I was talking to my therapist about all of this and mentioned what I then called “the gender spectrum.” She paused for a moment and said, “What if it’s more like a constellation?”

CHILD’S VOICE: …Papa? Can…

SUMNER MCRAE: So, what happens when you get to outer space?

CHILD: You lose track of Earth. Can you make more stars?

SUMNER MCRAE: Yeah.

CHILD: And I’ll make the universe…

SUMNER MCRAE: Let’s take a quick break for some Gender 101. If you’re a fellow nonbinary, trans, gender non-conforming, or genderqueer person, or anyone questioning or interrogating gender, or a gender accomplice, a lot of the language in this podcast will probably feel familiar to you. For those who are new to thinking about gender, or just need a refresher, here’s a quick primer on a few concepts that are likely to pop up a lot. Number 1

SPEAKER 1: The gender binary. The idea that gender and sex are dimorphic and that there are only two genders or two sexes, man and woman, male and female.

SUMNER MCRAE: Number 2. 

SPEAKER 2: Nonbinary. A term used to describe people whose gender falls outside of the gender binary.

SUMNER MCRAE: Number 3. 

SPEAKER 3: Cis-gender. This refers to someone whose sex assigned at birth matches their gender identity. For example, someone who was assigned male at birth and who feels like and identifies as a man.

SUMNER MCRAE: And, number 4: Pronouns. This podcast is produced in English and English pronouns are traditionally gendered. Most folks are familiar with he/him and she/her pronouns. More recently, they/them has come into broader use as a gender neutral option. There are also a variety of other creative gender neutral pronouns, sometimes called neo-pronouns, that have been used by queer and trans folks for many years. Always respect people’s pronouns and if you’re not sure what they prefer, ask. Don’t forget that you can always default to they/them for anyone you don’t know! For those who need some more background knowledge, there are many good resources and essays on non-binary gender and gender identity available online. You can find links to some of these resources in the show notes and at our website, beyondthebinarypodcast.com. 

SUMNER MCRAE: Beyond the Binary is a podcast centered on folks navigating spaces where binary gender is deeply entrenched and enforced. We’ll tackle each main topic or big theme in a short series of episodes. I hope we get the opportunity to take on many more topics as the podcast grows.

For this first series, “Parenting in the Gender Binary,” we’ll do an episode on birth. We’ll do an episode on the everyday ins and outs of raising kids as nonbinary, trans, and gender non-conforming parents. We’ll also do an episode on family – our families of origin and our chosen families. And finally, an episode on community. I recognize that there are limitations to my ability to tell this story in completeness. I am white. I have economic privilege. I am able-bodied. I am also transmasculine. I am aware that a lot of the content in this podcast skews towards transmasculine parenting experiences more so than transfemme experiences. There are a multitude of trans, nonbinary, and gender non-conforming parenting experiences here in this moment, and over the course of human history, in many times and many places. This is just part of that story. Join us. You are welcome here.

SUMNER MCRAE: If you liked what you heard today and you want to help us make more content like this, you can support Beyond the Binary through our Patreon page, Patreon.com/beyondthebinary. You can also find links to our Patreon page and more info about the podcast at our website, beyondthebinarypodcast.com. And of course, don’t forget to subscribe to Beyond the Binary on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Subscribing ensures you don’t miss an episode, and if you can, leave a review! It really helps. Next episode, we’ll dive further into this journey.

SPEAKER 1: And we figured, you know, in the middle of Michigan, here, like there, we might not find a doula whose worked with like, a trans birthing person before, but we’d like to find somebody whose like, met a trans person before, or like, used gender neutral pronouns for people before.

SUMNER MCRAE: Join us for Beyond the Binary, Episode 2: Birth

SUMNER MCRAE: Beyond the Binary is written, hosted, and produced by me, Sumner McRae. Co-produced by Barbara Schwabauer. Theme music by Sumner McRae. Special thanks this episode to Barbara Schwabauer, Meghan Myron-Karels, Dylan Flunker, and Kristin Haltinner.